Note: This is drawn from an online conversation I had and thus it's framed as such. I was trying to answer a multitude of questions and points raised by a skeptic. As the title says, it talks about the application of Old Testament Laws in New Testament times along with understanding the divinity of Jesus. I hope someone else may find this effort to help provide some answers to legitimate questions agnostics and/or atheists ask. As always, the best idea is to go to the Source- ask God Himself to reveal these things to you. As Jeremiah 29:13 says, you will seek Him and find Him when you seek Him with all your heart.
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Hi! Thank you for your patience, sir. I knew this would likely be a long response and I wanted to have both wifi service and a computer keyboard available when I typed it.
Let me say just a few things up front before I go any further. First of all, I wanted to note the limitations of this format for such conversations, as it does not allow for a real tet-a-tet where people can see each other face to face and observe facial expressions and tone of voice and so forth. And since this is someone else's Facebook wall, I don't want to bog down their wall with lengthy posts.
I am happy to do my best to address your questions but I have absolutely no desire to argue or debate about them. Thus, I will do what I said I would do and try to cover each point one by one with a Biblical view. You are of course free to do whatever you want with that after that point. As you have already proved, the truth of 1 Corinthians 2:14 remains. If you're not in Christ, you will not understand the things that are discerned by the Spirit. Thus, the best way to really address your questions is to sincerely ask them to Creator God Himself- and the best way to do that is to sincerely put faith in Jesus and follow Him as Lord and Saviour. I certainly pray you might choose to do that but that is of course your choice to make. I respect everyone's right to their own religious choices. And every choice has consequences.
So- back to John 20:17. Jesus says to Mary in the garden that He's going back to her God and His God. You said you didn't question Jesus' use of the term "His Father and Mary's Father". Why's that? It seems Jesus answers your question in this same verse. He was clearly identifying His Father as God here. The grammar indicates He was talking about the same Person. Thus, His God is God the Father. The reason He can say this is because of the fact that He was fully God and fully man.
Secondly- you asked about a proof text for that claim. There are a number of passages that speak about this but perhaps the best one I could point you to is Philippians 2. This passage notes that though Jesus was in the form of God, He did not count equality with God something to be grasped but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bondservant and being born in the likeness of men. (Some translations say He made Himself nothing and took on the form of a slave.) The term "servant" is important though as this references back to the prophecies God made about the coming of His servant in Isaiah. Isaiah 52 and 53 speak about this servant and clearly paint a picture of Jesus the Messiah, who came in human form and humbled Himself to the point of death, even death on a cross. (The "even" part is important too- this refers back to Old Testament writings in the Law that proclaimed such a death to be a curse. Galatians 3 speaks about this. Deuteronomy 21:23 declared everyone hanged on a tree to be cursed. This is why Galatians 3 speaks of Jesus redeeming us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. Because of Christ's obedience, Philippians 2 goes on to say that God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the Name that is above every name so that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, in Heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It's also worth noting on this question that Jesus repeatedly referred to Himself as both the Son of Man and the Son of God. (Matthew 16:13-17- He affirms both titles here. See also John 5:17-18)
Third point- There wasn't a really question here, but I would say that you should reinsert the mysticism and set it back in front of you because it is important. Jesus has always existed. The fact that He came into the world for a period of time as a human via a mystical working of the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb (see Matthew 1 and Luke 1) does not mean Jesus was created. Colossians 1 and John 8:58 both speak to Jesus' eternal existence. See also John 1:1, which says that in the beginning was The Word and The Word was with God and The Word was God. (John 1:14 goes on to clarify that The Word is Jesus.) God was not created- He has eternally existed and eternally exists and will eternally exist. Of course, this baffles the human mind and goes beyond our understanding. But that stands to reason- we shouldn't expect to understand God in totality; otherwise, He wouldn't be much of a God.
Fourth point- I can show you a plethora of places in the synoptic Gospels where Jesus claimed divinity.
For that, I will stop this post and post that separately. (See separate post-
http://wordapplelyspoken.blogspot.com/2017/03/season-for-reason-jesus-is-god-he-said.html?m=0)
Fifth point- Again, not really a question here but as I said earlier, Leviticus 11:45 has everything to do with Jesus because Jesus quoted it in Matthew 5:48 and in Matthew 5:17 He stated that He came to fulfill that law and all the others. This is incredibly significant because none of us can keep that Law, which all humanity is held accountable to in the end. God did give this Law to the Hebrews first, but He gave it so that they could live in such a way to be set apart and be an example to the other nations of the truth of The Lord God. Romans 2 speaks of the Gentiles being a Law unto themselves as all of us have consciences as a remnant of being made in the image of God that instill in us the difference between right and wrong.
Romans 1-6 speaks a lot to the tension between the Law and Grace. As John 1:17 says- "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." Jesus also affirmed the truth of all Scriptures as God's Word in John 17 and He spoke to the dudes on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24 about the numerous Scriptures throughout the Old Testament that speak directly of Him.
Sixth point- The funny thing about the phrase "cherry picking" is that it makes perfect sense to speak of passages relevant to a point and not mention others that are not immediately relevant. That doesn't mean one ignores the other passages. I uphold the validity of all The Bible and I certainly believe in taking the full counsel of Scripture from all of God's Word. In cherry picking, I assume one would pick ripe cherries and not unripe ones; similarly, it makes sense to reference passages to support points while not mentioning ones that are not particularly relevant to those points.
I previously addressed the question about Ezekiel 18, but to reiterate and clarify a bit more: that passage, along with all others, must be read in context to fully understand it. It's important to remember the people it was written to and the purpose it was written for and the time and language it was written in, as well as where it was written. This passage was written to the Jewish people at that time in history and its setting is within the Mosaic Law. The people were still under that Covenant and the only way they had of following The Lord was living by that Covenant and putting faith in the Messiah to come. God makes clear here that He will punish the the soul who sins with death. He later says in the same chapter that He will judge everyone according to his ways. And He exhorts Israel to turn from her wicked ways and repent! He asks them, "Why will you die?" As Ezekiel 18:32 says, God takes no pleasure in the death of anyone- so turn and live!
As numerous other passages affirm, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23, Proverbs 20:9, Isaiah 64:6, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalms 14:1-3, Psalms 53:1-3) Hebrews 9:22 says that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. The whole book of Hebrews explains that the Law cannot save us because none of us keep the Law perfectly. It also explains that through Jesus we are saved by faith in His sacrifice and resurrection. The shedding of Christ's blood is absolutely necessary for our salvation. He is the final Passover Lamb.
Jesus said what He said in Mark 10:18 for a reason as well. First of all, it's worth noting that it's recorded slightly differently in Matthew's account. In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus tells the rich young ruler, "Why do you ask Me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." (It's interesting to note here that Jesus steers him to the keeping of the commandments and shows the ruler that he still lacks because he is unwilling to sell all he has and give to the poor and follow Jesus. This leads into Jesus' famous statement about how hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven; it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Yet even though with man this is impossible, with God all things are possible. (Thus, rich people can enter God's kingdom through God's help but their earthly riches are certainly stumbling blocks for them.) Jesus doesn't say that He isn't the One who is good in this passage. I personally think He is questioning the rich young ruler as to why He addresses Jesus in that manner. The rich young ruler refers to Jesus as an authority on good deeds and the way to have eternal life. I think in saying this Jesus is getting the guy to recognize what he's saying and understand why he's coming to Jesus with this question- because he does recognize Jesus as good. (And if Jesus is truly good, then He is God because only God is truly good.) Jesus is getting the guy to realize His divinity because in effect, He's telling the guy, "So you realize you're equating Me with God? You recognize that I'm the authority on good because I am good and that's because God is good and He and I are the same."
(Here is a good article that speaks more to this point.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=4832&fbclid=IwAR2bMDN8CLW9IrnhwDkQIe1J3mY-siEcTnKKaDifNQEIcn0LURmkVIjZV6Q)
Seventh- You say you don't believe in Heaven or Hell, original sin or total depravity. I assure you that all those notions are sound, Biblically based doctrine and not merely church tradition. If you want to say they are invented to control the masses, I suppose that's true in some sense. But it's not Christians who invented them- it's God. And He does want to control the masses because He wants control of all of our lives. He is our Creator and He knows best how our lives should run. That is why He came in the form of a human being- Jesus the Christ, who was both fully man and fully God at the same time- who died and rose and then left us who believe in Him the Holy Spirit, so that we could have Him living in us. It's all part of the redemptive story of The Bible. God created the world and everything and everyone in it to be perfect but man has gone off in search of many schemes. People decided to sin and rebel against God. This brought a curse on the whole world and separated us from God. God towered above the Israelites in a cloud by day and a pillar of fire at night and only Moses and the high priest could get anywhere near Him and live! He told them He was going to send a Prophet- later dudes like Isaiah said He was going to send His Servant- and this Prophet and suffering Servant would come and know us in a way God had never done before. He became one of us! Jesus is rightly called Emmanuel- God with us! And Jesus was tempted in all things just as we are- yet was without sin. And because He was the perfect sacrifice, He could be the final Passover Lamb- the spotless Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. And when Jesus died and rose and ascended, He didn't leave us as orphans but He sent the Holy Spirit. Now God draws closer still- He dwells inside our very bodies! The Holy Spirit lives in those who follow Christ and God uses His followers today to be a witness for Christ and show His love to the world and speak His truth to the world in love.
And in the end, we will be finally reunited with God face to face when Christ returns or whenever we die- whichever comes first. Those who know Christ as Saviour and Lord will be with Him in Heaven for eternity. Those who do not will be in Hell for eternity.
And in the end, people get where they choose to be. Logically, one can either be with God or away from God in eternity. To be away from God is Hell and to be with God is Heaven. Jesus is Heaven because being with Him is what it's all about. It's getting back to our original design that was put in place in Eden and that we rebelled against. The devil and his demons long ago rebelled and made their choice and they love to take as many humans as they can with them to the lake of fire. Jesus wants everyone to be saved and come to Heaven with Him. (2 Peter 3:8-9) But He is not going to force anyone to come. People must make their own choice. That was the whole point of giving us free will- God wants us to choose to love and follow Him willingly and not by force. We understand that in the context of marriage. I don't think any husband wants to have a Stepford Wife who is robotically programmed to love him and do whatever he wants. In the end, the only love really worth having is the love that is freely given by choice and not by coercion. God could certainly make everyone love Him and follow Him- but He wants our love willingly given to Him. He loved us first and He wants us to love and follow Him in return.
Everyone has their own choice on what to do with that.
I'd rather people choose to follow Christ and be in Heaven instead of Hell and that's why I certainly exhort people to make that choice and pray that they will take that step of faith. I can't force them to do so though and I would never try. God is also not going to force anyone. Everyone must make their own choice. And people are welcome to believe as they want to believe.
As I said before though, every choice has consequences. Jesus will return one day and the final judgement will take place for everyone. Whether that event happens in our lifetime or not, there is another day that we will all face and that is the day of death. One day we will all die. I believe there is an eternity we will face and only two options of where to spend it- in Heaven or in Hell. I also know the way to avoid Hell and to go to Heaven instead- and that's through faith in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection on our behalf! It's trusting His perfection in living the life perfectly pleasing to God that we never could. And it's following Him because He loves us and wants us to be with Him.
That's the reason I share this hope in Christ- because I know the truth of the eternal consequences of our choice on what to do with Christ and the only natural response to being enveloped by God's love is to share Him with everyone! I seek to do this in obedience to Jesus.
If you knew a house was on fire and the people inside were asleep and were going to burn to death, would you do something about it and at least try to warn them or just walk on by and ignore it? What's the more loving thing to do? Certainly, it's more loving to rip someone out of their sleep and get them to safety out of the fire. Jude 1:22-23 says to have mercy on those who doubt and save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh. Of course, I can't do this in my own strength. All I can do is share what Jesus says and what He did and how much He loves us all and how we can all be saved if we'll let Him. And I can seek to love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and love my neighbour as myself. Jesus said those are the two most important commands. I seek to do those first and foremost and also obey Ephesians 4:15 and speak The Truth in Love.
In any case, I hope that helps answer your questions. Of course, it may still not all make sense to you. All I can say is that I would urge you to keep seeking Creator God earnestly because He's already seeking you. Bring these questions and any others to Him in sincerity and listen for His answer. You might also like to try reading through The Bible again for the 61st. time and try it with a fresh approach. Throw out everything you already think about God and go in with an approach that is willing to take God at His Word and believe the best about Him and trust that He is really there and really true in all He says. You may like to try this just with the Gospels first. Contemplate this- what if Jesus really is God and really died and really rose again and will really return and I really will have to stand before Him and give an account for everything I've ever said, thought or done in my life? What will I say to Him for Him to let me into Heaven? I know what I will say. I don't deserve to be in His presence because I am a sinner who has chosen his own way so many times and failed God so many numerous times. But God loves me so much He came and took the punishment I deserve on the cross and rose again to save me and I trust Him and His righteousness alone for salvation.
May God bless you as you seek Him and make your decision.
